Intro:
[music plays]
Niki: I’m Niki Christoff and welcome to Tech’ed Up. I’m stoked to be back, in person, in the studio with today’s guest, former Congressman and presidential candidates John Delaney, now the founder and Executive Chairman of Forbright Bank.
Like me, John’s an unabashed optimist, an unapologetic Washington superfan, and he believes in the power of tech. We’re doing the most [chuckles] in this episode: from covering bipartisanship and AI policy, to TikTok and gas stoves, as well as the call to serve our country.
Transcript:
Niki: Good morning. Today in the Tech’ed Up studio, we have John Delaney, former congressman. Welcome.
John: So great to be here. Thanks for having me, Niki.
Niki: I wanna talk about you, your bio; you've run for president, which not everybody can say [John: That’s true!] not that many people. You ran on a radical platform, in my opinion.
John: [interrupts] Of being normal!
Niki: [chuckling] I know! Of reaching across the aisle, people were, like, “This guy's nuts.” You ran truly on a bipartisan sort of concept and that marked your time in Congress. So, my thought was we talk a little bit about your career, how you ended up in Congress and what you're doing now, and how the private sector can maybe help solve some tech solutions if we think there might be some sand in the gears [chuckles] over on Capitol Hill.
So, we'll start with you. You're from Jersey.
John: I'm from Jersey! Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey, as Mr. Springsteen says. Yeah, I'm from North Jersey, Bergen County, a little town called Woodridge, which is right next to what was Giant Stadium.
Niki: Okay.
John: Grew up in a blue-collar family. My dad was an electrician. So, that kind of life.
Niki: Okay. That kind of life. And then what took you from there to the halls of Congress?
John: Well, that's, so [pause] after college, I went to college in New York, at Columbia. I came down to go to law school, where the best thing that could have ever happened to me happened. I met my wife.
And I would describe her interest in moving back to the New York area as non-existent. So we stayed here in D.C. and I became an entrepreneur. I started a couple of businesses and, y’know, just always wanted to serve. I had kind of thought of my life as a third learning, a third earning, and a third serving.
Niki: Wait, you thought about that?
John: Yeah, I did think about that, actually! [Niki: Okay] And I said, y’know, “At some point, it would be great to serve,” and, y’know, I look back on it, and I wasn't really called to serve when I was young, and I sometimes wonder why that was the case, but I just wasn't, I was trying to figure out my life and, but it, but it's probably in my thirties, I started to think about, “I would really like to do public service at some point.”
And living in D.C. does that to you. I think because so many people call this place a swamp, but you, you meet so many great people who come to D.C. for the right reason: to serve, to try to make a difference. Not every one of them falls into that category, but at least in my experience, having lived in this town, raised my family, raised my four daughters. Um, I just think there's great people who were called for the right reason, and so I think it does inspire you at some level.
Niki: I appreciate you saying that. I love Washington, D.C.! [John: Totally]
So, I lived in Silicon Valley for several years and moved back here partly because it's a diverse city. It's ideologically diverse [John: Mm-hmm] by definition, it's international, it's got, actually, a middle class because the federal government's here, it's-
John: [interrupts] And it's a beautiful city!
Niki: It's a beautiful city.
John: And, y’ know, I think what people don't realize, and, and I'm a good example of this because when I ran for Congress, having never worked on Capitol Hill, although my wife, who's a communications attorney has been engaged and she founded a non-profit called Common Sense Media, co-founded it. She's been engaged more in public policy.
But for me, going to Capitol Hill was a new experience, and I think what a lot of members of Congress don't realize, and a lot of people who think about Washington, don't realize is there's another Washington. It's not just what you see on CSPAN, right? Or it's not just what you hear coming out of the White House. As you said, there's a wonderful, diverse community. People doing all kinds of interesting things like you're doing. Living their lives, trying to make a difference, being part of the economy, part of the community, raising their family.
And it's this wonderful other Washington.
It's a great, I think it's a great place to live.
Niki: I agree.
John: It's totally not the swamp!
Niki: It's not the swamp at all!
Actually, I, when I came back from Silicon Valley, I was at Sweetgreen standing in line for lunch and the person behind me was watching the Benghazi hearing on their phone. [John: Yeah] I thought, “Oh, I'm home. These are my people.” [John: Yeah] [chuckling] People paying attention!
Okay, so you ended up, so you actually were working here, living here, having a life, [John: Totally] and then decided to serve. So, you represented Maryland?
John: Yeah, so I graduated from law school. I practiced law for a year. [Niki: Oh, same!] Yeah, we had that in common. [Niki: We have that in common] And, and then when, when I was in law school, I kind of got this, this urge to be an entrepreneur. I was working at a law, a small law firm while I was in school and the, the partners were kind of part-time business people and part-time lawyers. And I got the entrepreneurial itch.
So I started my first company a couple years outta law school. Started that, took it public. Ran it as a public company, sold it. Then I started another company, took that public, ran that as a public company. And then, in what most of my friends describe as a significant midlife crisis, I decided to walk away from all of that and run for Congress.
And that was 2012? So, I was elected in 2012 to represent Maryland’s Sixth Congressional District, which starts in Montgomery County, right outside here, D.C. and goes all the way to Western Maryland.
Niki:You and I actually know each other, we, I don't know if you recall this, but you have been helping the Chamber of Commerce.
John: Yeah. You did a great interview!
Niki: Thank you! You were doing; you're one of the commissioners of their AI study. [John: Mm-hmm] They've been going all around the country [John: Mm-hmm], honestly, in my opinion, doing a great job talking to a huge variety of stakeholders, not just industry and businesses, but academics and ethicists.
And you are one of the two commissioners leading this with a report to come out soon. And that's how we met because you were interested in tech and AI during your time in Congress.
So I'm curious, one, if you think that the dynamics in Congress have changed. So, our last guest was Senator Mark Warner, and he said, “Tech issues aren't really left/right. They’re future/past.”
And I don't know if you agree with that. If you have thoughts on it?
John: Well, Mark's a good friend of mine, so I generally will always publicly agree with what Mark says.
I must say when I was deciding whether to run for office or not, I had a lot of conversations with Mark about that. And I remember him telling me, “Well, how will you feel at the end of your life if you didn't do it?”It was actually very good advice.
So, I did found the Artificial Intelligence Caucus in the House of Representatives, which, which was kind of a joke at the time. Whenever you use intelligence and you attach it to the House of Representatives, [Niki: chuckles] you, you open yourself up for a lot of comedy [Niki: Romper room over there]
But look, it was my view that AI machine learning, whatever you want to call it, is reshaping every as aspect of our economic systems, our, kind of, cultural systems. And there was no place in Congress, and this became really clear at the first hearing that I think any of the social media companies ever testified at. When Facebook was testifying, and it was clear the U.S. Senators didn't even know the first question to ask them.
I mean, the, just disconnect between where the technology was going, how fast it was going, and policymaker's ability to, put, put aside, regulate it, even understand it was so limited that there needed to be a place in the Congress where lawmakers convene with outside experts and start trying to get smart on these things.
So we found- myself and then Congressman from Texas, Pete Olson, we founded the AI Caucus and started doing that.
Niki: I think the sophistication of both the staff and the members has gotten really high, especially keeping in mind it's not just, they're not just there to regulate tech, but they're dealing with [pause] adding to NATO, and our supply chain issues, and cross-strait relations in China. [John: right] So they have, I think sometimes there's this idea, especially in Silicon Valley of like, “They can't figure it out,” but they're actually just super busy.
John: Yeah! They, there's other things- I mean, I think people in Silicon Valley kind of think they're the center of the universe?
Niki: For sure!
John: They're important, but they're not everything. And yeah, members of Congress are, and what happens in Congress and you know this, members get areas of expertise. Y’know, some people focus on infrastructure a lot or education, or healthcare. I mean, these are huge complex issues and the same thing with technology policy.
Someone like Senator Warner who was, was in the technology business in the private sector, has a natural background for these issues. So you tend to gravitate either to what you're interested in or what you have some, some, y’know, understanding of. So, there needs to be more of that. But I think you're right. I think the learning curve they're starting to move up it and they're starting to get more sophisticated on these issues. And that's a good thing. And I think the AI Caucus that we started contributed to that. Now it's one of the biggest caucuses in the Congress and it was six, six years ago, I guess, we started it seven years ago.
It was hard to get people to join it. That's so, shows you how it's changed. [Niki: That’s really interesting] Yeah. Yeah.
Niki: And it's such a buzzword right now.
John: The computing power has just grown exponentially, obviously, and that's enabled all this stuff, and it's going to, it's gonna continue. [Niki: Yeah] None of us really know exactly where it's going.
Niki: I'm glad they're paying attention to it. I think this is a huge national security issue for us, too. [John: Mm-hmm] An economic issue, obviously a bias issue.
So, you have a lot of experience in AI. Quickly, if you look at, and I'm not asking you to, like, look as a fortune teller, but if there were something you would like to see this Congress focus on from like a tech policy perspective, what do you think at least is a place they might find agreement or could get something real done?
John: Well, well, there's obviously so many things they can do, but you frame the question in a way where what's, what's the art of the possible? So, I do think privacy particularly focused on kids. I think there's an opportunity for a lot of bipartisan agreement there.
I mean, we have a mental health crisis in this country. We see a lot of young people completely addicted to their devices entirely. And I think all of us, Democrats and Republicans, believe kids need some, a greater level of protection until they're ready to make some of these decisions for themselves. And adults make bad decisions about this stuff all the time, but they're adults, and they have the freedom to do that, but I think we all think kids deserve some basic measures of protections and privacy; how you can track them, how you can target them, what you can do with their data. So I tend to think that's a big bipartisan issue.
I do think, antitrust, there's an opportunity and, and it's broader. I mean, it's not just in technology, but it's in agriculture and a whole bunch of other industries. I mean, our, our antitrust laws are, are about a hundred years old. You know the Sherman and the Clayton Act? [Niki: Yeah] You remember from law school? [Niki: Yeah. I remember. Despite my limited]
Y’know, those were basically designed for what was considered, kind of, horizontal integration. And right now, we have all this vertical integration, so we don't really have the antitrust framework to deal with that in technology and ag and other areas. So I, I think there's opportunities for agreement there. I think the President made a compelling pitch in the Wall Street Journal about a week ago in his op-ed when he talked about Section 230 needing to be updated, which I personally agree with.
Niki: It's so hard, though!
John: I know! I'm not sure there's as much bipartisan support for that. But, but I think antitrust and I think privacy are some real opportunities for this Congress to get some things done.
Niki: I like that you led with kids. I don't have kids, but it doesn't mean I'm not concerned about them.
And you mentioned, which I didn't know [chuckles] until just a few minutes ago, that your wife was one of the founders of Common Sense Media.
John: Yeah! Yeah. The real founder was a guy named Jim Steyer. He was the kind of lead, but she was on the early team, and he wrote a book called The Other Parent, and he wrote this book 20 years ago.
And what it said is, and again this is 20 years ago, that kids spend more time with the media than they do with their parents and teachers combined. And the parents and teachers were completely ill-equipped to help their kids navigate the media. And that's only gotten worse.
Niki: It's gotten worse. And actually, one of my big, sort of bugaboos is TikTok and the content that's pushed to kids. And I think parents don't even know what's on it.
John: Yeah! They have no idea. I mean, y’know, when we have a problem, I mean, I have four kids. When, when you have a problem, I mean, three of them are outta the house now, but when you have a problem with your technology as an adult, you ask your kids!
Niki: Right? They've all got their fake Insta, their Finsta accounts. No one really knows.
John: Yeah, yeah! I was with my, my 15-year-old in an Uber the other day and I was like, “I want to add another stop. How do I do that?” And I'm looking at my thing, and she grabs my phone and does it instantly. [Niki: laughs] Y’know, that, that's kind of where we are.
So, so I think, so I don't think we have any idea what's going on with kids with respect to technology. Addiction, its contribution to mental health, depression, anxiety, all these things. So I, I just think there's a lot of opportunity for Democrats and Republicans to come together and protect kids within the technology space, and obviously, AI and machine learning, what we started with, all makes that stuff more powerful. And so, the urgency around this issue, I think, is acute right now.
Niki: Yeah, and to your point, I mean, I'm an adult, obviously, who my brain was formed without any real electronic- I think I had Prodigy on [John: Yeah] like a computer in my senior year of high school. And I have trouble- I have one of those Ksafe, those kitchen safe things that you like, stick your phone into and lock it away from yourself. [John: Right] And like, I have to do that, and I didn't even grow up with my brain on these devices.
John: Well, the thing that I think was the most shocking to a lot of Americans. This was exposed several years ago when it became clear, ‘cause they did a lot of surveys of this. None of the executives of the technology companies allow their kids to use any of these things.
Niki: They do not! There are whole schools in Silicon Valley where they use no electronics.
John: That's right! So, if the people creating these tools, who have the best insights into them, have decided that they're not appropriate for their kids at different developmental stages from a cognitive perspective, the fact that we don't regulate it for all the other children out there is, I think, immoral.
Niki: So, I will say this, I am a tech apologist in many ways. So, with kids, I'm with you. I don't know about antitrust necessarily, but I definitely think that parents need more control and transparency. And I need more control over my privacy. [John: Mm-hmm] I feel like it's extracted from me. [John: Mm-hmm]
And yet, I still always try to keep in mind some of the magical things. Like, I cannot believe I was out here stumbling around without a cell phone [John: Yeah] or, y’know, Google Maps or Apple Maps. [John: Yeah] So, there are still magical things [John: Totally] and I- sometimes we get so down on social media that we forget the sort of extraordinary parts of it. And yet.
John: [interrupts] And I'm not, I'm not, y’know, look at, I think, I think the facts favor the optimist.
I think technological improvement, by any measure, has improved the condition of humanity across time, full stop. And it's doing that as we speak today. There's no question about it. So, I don't think we want to be Luddites, right? We don't want to be turning the world back to a world that we thought was better when it actually wasn't.
If you look at key poverty, child labor, y’know, infant mortality, all these key metrics of the quality of the human condition have improved dramatically through technological innovation and interconnections. So we want that to continue. But that doesn't mean this notion, and I think this did happen a little too much with crypto, where people would say, “Well, you know, regulation will stifle innovation.”
Y’know, that that is used as a, as a tool or a weapon to prevent even the most common sense basic things we need to do. Too much regulation definitely stifles innovation, but there's a balance and some of these issues I think need to be addressed.
Niki: Yeah, and, and you can't necessarily futureproof cuz we don't know what it's gonna look like.
John: Yeah, yeah!
Niki: So, when we're using hundred-year-old antitrust laws…
John: Yeah! Exactly. I mean, look at, if you think about our antitrust laws, if you think about a street corner, it was designed so that one grocery store couldn't own all the grocery stores on every street corner, right? It was all horizontal, right?
We don't want people to control markets. But now it's all vertical. The integration of these businesses, it's happening in agriculture with, y’know, controlling the seed distribution. And y’know, if you look at the price farmers get for their crops and how much margin they lose, it's clearly because we've allowed too much consolidation in the Ag business.
If you look at technology, we've seen the big technology companies. Again, I'm not walking around anti-big technology companies, but their power over some new players in the business and their ability to prevent them from getting on their feet because of the, all the control they have in markets, I think is troubling.
Niki: And worth looking at.
John: Totally!
Niki: Okay, so, which is, maybe this is a good segue cuz you were talking about, we're talking about what Congress can do and regulations. [John: Mm-hmm] I'm sort of bearish on, I think there's a lot of things happening in the agency that in my opinion, should go through Congress. [John: Mm-hmm] Let's talk about the private sector.
John: It always should go through Congress.
Niki: It should always go through Congress. [John: Right] This drives me totally bananas!
John: The problem with our country, in a nutshell, is, [Niki: [chuckling] Oh yes, tell me] is because Congress has been so dysfunctional, the courts in the executive branch have become too powerful.
Niki: Yes!! And if you write a law with a pen, it can be undone with a sharpie.
John: Yeah.
Niki: That's a fact. I know, and, but we, we, I really do just have to believe, at least on some of these things, and maybe that's why I'm focused on kids. [John: Mm-hmm] Like, there have to be some places we can carve out agreement. And I will say this for Congress this year, they got a lot done, including the CHIPS Act, which was a great step forward.
John: I, I think the, the, y’know, I ran for president.
Niki: Oh yes! Tell us about your running for president.
John: I just thought I'd throw that in there.
Niki: Please do!
John: [jokingly] Well, obviously wasn't very successful.
Niki: But it takes a lot to run in, in all seriousness.
John: And, y’know, I, I, in some ways, I ran on [pause] the way Biden's governing, which is why I've been such a huge supporter of, of how he's done as president. Y’know, the kind of things I called for is that your stated when you are inaugurated, you would announce a hundred-day agenda that it would include only bipartisan legislation that is sitting in the Congress ready to be acted on.
I mean, we needed some restoration of this notion that the two sides can actually find common ground and get things done. And I think on the infrastructure bill, and I think on the CHIPS Act those were great examples of that. These are transformative pieces of legislation that will position the country to be successful economically in the next several decades, and they were done on a bipartisan basis.
I'm also a big fan of the Inflation Reduction Act, which really doesn't have a lot to do with inflation, but it has a heck of a lot to do with climate. [Niki: laughs] Which wasn't bipartisan, but I still, still thought it was transformative.
Niki: If you, if you name a climate bill, the Inflation Reduction Act, you have a better chance of it passing.
John: [chuckling] Listen, you know, it is what it is.
Niki: Welcome to Washington. [John: That's right] So, okay, let's talk climate for a minute. What you're doing now for a living, what you're excited about. [John: Sure] You're back in the private sector.
John: Well, I do think, y’know, the climate situation, and if you look at the data that's coming out, it is really urgent, and I think it's a national security issue. I think it's an economic prosperity issue. I think it cuts across all aspects of our life and I'm really happy the government has finally done something with good public policy, the Inflation Reduction Act, but I think the private sector ultimately has to lead, and you're seeing it, you're seeing tremendous innovation.
You're seeing the convergence of consumer sentiment. Right now, 50% of American consumers consider sustainability when they make a purchasing decision. So, every single company in the United States, whether they believe in climate change or not, is paying attention to the fact that 50% of consumers consider it when they make a purchase decision.
And what I did is I started a bank, a very traditional, regulated financial institution that is mission-aligned around decarbonization and sustainability. And what that means is 50% of our assets will be directly linked to financing decarbonization or sustainability. And so, if people want to bank with a bank that's doing that stuff, we want them to bank with Forbright. [Niki: Okay] Which is the name of the bank.
Niki: We'll drop it in the show notes.
John: [jokingly] I'm gonna drop it in the show. It's Forbright, in case you missed it.
Niki: [laughs] We'll drop it in so people can see it.
I think this is, I agree with you. I think especially young people; there's such a sense of [interrupts self] so people really knock Gen Z, but I have a lot of Gen Z people that I work with and around, and they are extremely active, engaged, and focused on this issue. [John: Mm-hmm] They're against fast fashion. It's not just like straws. I mean, they are really thinking about this in a holistic way around how they live their lives.
John: And, and it's everything. It's not, y’know, people tend to think of it, of course, it's fossil fuels and I think we need to get off fossil fuels. I mean, we can't get off fossil fuels right away. We have to have an energy transition, but we need to get off them because they contribute to climate change. We also need to get off them cuz we're gonna run out of them one day, right?
Niki: I mean, I'm very pro-nuclear energy, but [John: Totally!] back in the day though, y’know what, 15-
John: [interrupts excitedly] We've had failed nuclear policy!
Niki: We have! And 15 years ago, I worked for Frank Luntz, who's a Republican pollster. We ran all these focus groups, and we were trying to get voters in Vermont to be okay with having nuclear power in Vermont, and they did not want it. And, I think, to our great detriment.
John: Well, balancing environmental regulations on the natural world with environmental progress with respect to climate is difficult.
And I don't think we've struck the right balance. Cuz here's the, the example you talk about. Nuclear is a good, y’know, is the perfect example, which is because of NIMBYs, y’know, “Not in my backyard,” and because of concerns about nuclear waste, which are legitimate, but I'd much rather deal with nuclear waste problem then the climate problem.
Niki: [interrupts] Spent nuclear fuel [John: That's right] [chuckling] Spent nuclear, that's what we used to call it. Sorry! Continue. I'm, I'm joking, but…
John: No, you're right! But because of those concerns, y’know, Germany basically closed out all their nuclear power plants. I mean, it's ridiculous! Similarly, we have this, this fabulous infrastructure legislation, and a lot of the infrastructure we're gonna build is gonna be sustainable infrastructure, but it takes so long to get things approved. We need, y’know, and a lot of that is because of environmental concerns, which I get.
But we have to figure out ways of accelerating things, fast-tracking things, et cetera. So, we've gotta do a better job balancing our concern for the natural world with making progress against climate.
Niki: Yeah, I agree with that. And actually, I was sort of joking, but there is a PR problem around nuclear, but I also think this is maybe the contrarian in me; I'm not a fan of electric vehicles that just plug into a dirty grid and have unrecyclable batteries.
John: That's right. But, one day the grid, hopefully, won't be dirty. And if all the vehicles are electric, then that will be transformative, right? Because let's say we were able to get the grid to be based on renewables? [Niki: Right] If, if we don't transition off gas-powered cars, then we haven't fully solved the problem.
Niki: Yeah. And what we will not talk about today is gas stoves. [chuckling]
John: We will not talk about- I like my gas stove.
Niki:I like my gas stove!
John: I like to cook!
Niki: [chuckling] I don't even cook and I like my gas stove. I don't wanna be bossed around.
John: That's right!
Niki: [still chuckling] But we have bigger fish to fry, I think, with the climate.
John: Yes. Y’know, what's a bigger fish? Like, here's an example of the climate stuff. 7% of the world's CO2 comes from cement. If the cement industry were its own country, it would be the third-largest emitter of CO2 in the world.
Niki: No one knows that!
John: Right. Some people do.
Niki: I mean, obviously, cement people do.
John: There's at least four people in this room who now know it. But there's all these entrepreneurs out there basically developing low-carbon cement and it'll work. There's, there's technology companies that are coming up with very small chips that they embed in cement.
Cuz one of the reasons why cement produces so much CO2 is when they're making it, they put materials in that produce a lot of CO2 in the mining of them, and they never know the exact right number to put in, and they want the cement to be strong, so they put too much of it in. [Niki: Mm-hmm]
So, there's technology companies who are coming up with, effectively, particles that are embedded in cement that tell you exactly how much you're mixing into the cement so that you can make it strong enough, but not too strong, which lowers its cost and make, reduces its CO2 footprint. But these are some of the things that are happening with innovation as it relates to decarbonization.
I think every industry, every big industry of this country: manufacturing, agriculture, building, transportation, and the energy industry are gonna be completely transformed in the next several decades. And, I personally think, it's the biggest business opportunity we've seen in our generation. Some of the most valuable companies in the world are gonna get created by this movement, which is why we think they need a bank.
Niki: So, I didn't know that about carbon and cement, but I do know that cement, the business, has extremely low margins. [John: Mm-hmm] Like razor thin.
So, I think that's another [John: Right!] maybe also what you're working on, you can make it cheaper. [John: Right] You have to make it cheaper because it's actually really, it's not an easy business. [John: But we need it!] Right!
John: Right. I mean, if you think about the, the developing world, you know, in 1960, I think 60% of the world lived in abject poverty. Today that number's 10%. So, anyone who tells you the world hasn't gotten better, you just give them that one statistic. But if you think about what's happened when people move from abject poverty to some kind of standard of living other than that: they consume more.
They have a house. They have a place to live in. They may actually take transportation. Do you see what I mean? So all, y’know, if, if we ultimately wanna move people up out of poverty, we're gonna have to continue to build the world. And the developing world is gonna do what we've done the last a hundred years, which is build all this stuff.
So, we've gotta be very focused on making sure that we do that in a more sustainable way. And we can't ask them to spend, y’know, make it, do it if it's much more expensive. Which is why the innovation has to be focused on not only making it more sustainable but driving down cost-
Niki: [interrupts] Making it more affordable. [John: Yeah] I am for all of this. [John: Yeah]
Do you have any last thought you wanna end on? You said something about what the facts are; I can't remember. It was really good?
John: The facts favor the optimist.
Niki: The facts favor the optimist. Maybe we end on that.
John: I think they do.
Niki: I think they do too!
John: I think we're settling in; I don't wanna call it industrial policy because that sounds like very, like, Soviet Union-ish. But I do think the private sector and the government and leaders are settling on kind of an industrial policy in this country that's gonna focus on reshoring, bringing back industries, spreading economic growth, not just to the big cities, but to other parts of the country, and focused on decarbonization.
And I think that's gonna usher in a terrific next couple of decades for the United States.
Niki: Yeah, I'm for it! Thank you for coming on. I really appreciate it.
John: Thanks for having me.
Niki: This was very interesting.
John: Yeah, it was good. It was a good conversation.
Outro:
Niki: Tune in next week to hear from our guest, the whip-smart Denise Zheng, as we explore the metaverse. Denise spends actual time in the actual metaverse right now as part of her job at Accenture. She makes the case for this immersive virtual experience and I’m just about convinced.
As always, thanks for listening and subscribing.